In Which We Are Duly Chastised for Mocking Other People’s Beliefs

[chuck]Leighton’s older brother Sean has found our site and does not like what he sees. He has sent the following email to call us to repentance and to tell us to start treating other people’s beliefs with the respect they deserve. He has even agreed to come on the podcast to discuss this with us. He’s going to be our guest speaker for the month of March.

Sean wanted the full email exchange between himself and Leighton posted on our site, and I am happy to oblige. It’s lengthy, so I’ve tucked most of it away behind the fold. Read on and be enlightened. It should be a very interesting podcast.

Charley,
I tried to find a way to post this on your site but was unable to. Therefore I am sending it to you in hopes that you will post all of it and hopefully change the way you are doing things.

If the desire is to have me on your podcast to discuss this matter. I am willing but I will stick with this subject only.

To my Brother and Good Friend,

First, I would like to state that Chuck and Leighton are in general wonderful intelligent people. I have a lot of respect for them and what they know. I do not respect the way they are doing things on this site. They used to be very respectful to others and present their information in a respectful ways. It seems they have changed. I am including the recent e-mail conversation that me and Leighton had about this subject.

The e-mail:
I must first explain that Leighton was calling me and others an automaton – There was a statement that no one had called him this and there was a statement that he did not know what the word meant. Therefore in this first e-mail I make a poke or joke with the word.

Here is the tough part to hear and write.

Main Entry: au•tom•a•ton
Pronunciation: \ȯ-ˈtä-mə-tən, -mə-ˌtän\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural au•tom•atons or au•tom•a•ta \-mə-tə, -mə-ˌtä\
Etymology: Latin, from Greek, neuter of automatos
Date: 1645
1 : a mechanism that is relatively self-operating; especially : ROBOT
2 : a machine or control mechanism designed to follow automatically a predetermined sequence of operations or respond to encoded instructions
3 : an individual who acts in a mechanical fashion

Leighton stated – “Especially since I see the vast, VAST majority of those “over there” as little more than automatons who accept whatever is spouted to them without any effort placed on their delving into the truth of things. I mean no offense”

From Sean – I thought only Italians could insult family this way and get away with it because they add on “I mean no offense”.
Since no one has told you. I think I shall. You are also an automaton taking in information like the rest and spouting it out as if it were your own. You judge easily brother for the same crime you yourself commit. You brother are arrogant, hardhearted, prideful believing yourself superior than all those around you (well, except Charley). I say this not too be critical but to let you know that you need to repent atheist or not. You stated in an e-mail to Heather, “my relationship with Charley for example. Were I to lie or cheat him respect would be lost between us and that friendship of years would be damaged or lost. Since we do not have “an eternity” to make amends it is far better to act in an appropriate manner all the time…” Does your family not deserve this same respect? Perhaps they might even deserve a little more! Why do others also not deserve this undying respect? Why do you feel so much better than others and that it is your duty to mock and scorn those who do not believe your way? Yet you SLANDER us and others (yes, I have heard them. Heather reminded me about your recordings). You brother have begun to boast in your own strength AND IT IS NOT EVEN YOUR KNOWLEDGE. Brother, do not be so prideful that you think it good to put down the beliefs of others to prove yourself so high and mighty. Regardless of their beliefs, no matter how foolish you view them to be. I know I am but a fool/automaton. I freely admit that anything I put before you is not my knowledge but the knowledge of those who came before me. You brother need to stop what you are doing and (YES) repent. Feel free to believe as you will but to mock and scorn others is going too far. Feel free to share your thoughts but being cruel is not anyway to show respect. You lose respect for this gross error in judgment you have made. YOU KNOW THIS IS WRONG regardless of what your current beliefs are. In order to get respect for your beliefs you need to show respect for others and their beliefs. I would say the same thing to Charley. Do not be so foolish as to follow or lead Charley any further down the path you have gone.
Though I am not an Italian, “I mean no offense” but I do mean to chastise.

With love and respect for your thoughts and beliefs,
Sean

—-
From Leighton – Why does everyone keep responding to this when the line is “closed”? And Sean, I do apologize that the truth hurts.

Leighton.
—-
From Sean – No brother. DID YOU EVEN REALLY READ WHAT I WROTE. What you are doing is not seeking truth. You are seeking to tear down others for fun. Truth is truth. It does not need to be presented the way you have chosen. I have no problem with the material (even though it does not fit my beliefs). It is the way you are using your beliefs to tear down others that is wrong. Present your findings and beliefs and let others see what you have to offer. When you use it to humiliate others and use it to boast in your own wisdom that is when it is wrong. You have become what you mock and scorn when you do this. I believe you see and understand what I am saying. Truly it is wrong and you know it.

Sean
—-
From Leighton – Sean, are you telling me you respect the belief that if you drink the magic cool aid you will be transported to the UFO behind Haley’s Comet? The evidence they had for this event is the same you are presenting me for your beliefs. Sean, if they were to tell you there was some magical spiritual sense and this is how they knew the UFO was behind Haley’s Comet, would you drink the cool aid? Sometimes the only response to absolute stupidity is mockery. Now, respect is earned. If you want my respect then you should treat what I present the same way I treat what you present. I consider it and grapple with everything you all have said. What you guys have done is curl up into a fetal position and cried about my tearing down your beliefs. This is what critical thinking does; it questions everything. All of you are getting your feelings hurt which is why I am allowing things to die down. At least I thought so, but surprisingly this conversation has become more active with my diminished participation. If you would all like me to tear apart EVERYTHING you and everyone else has said, because there are blatant flaws none of you are seeing, then I don’t want any of you whining about my questioning/tearing down your beliefs because I put an ounce of critical thinking into the mix.

Leighton
—-
From Sean –
“respect is earned. If you want my respect then you should treat what I present the same way I treat what you present.”
This is my point. I have not and do not whine about what you present. I have not and do not “curl up into a fetal position”. I have never mocked or scorned your beliefs regardless of how I feel about them. I have never been hurt by what you have said (In fact I was the one who helped calm you down so that the conversation could continue). I have always responded with respect for what you have presented. I have never NOT treated you and everything you have said with respect. I have never made fun of you drinking Charley’s magic cool aid (joke).
“This is what critical thinking does; it questions everything.”
I completely agree. Critical thinking is this. My point is that this is not what you are doing. Questioning is not mocking or pocking fun at others (such as in Lehi’s dream). Prove, question, point out flaws in thinking and think critically BUT DO NOT TEAR DOWN, MOCK AND SCORN. Have respect for others as they are also humans regardless of how intelligent they are. When I used to have discussions with Charley he used to present his “critical thinking” in a respectful way even when others weren’t respectful. It can be done and should be done with respect for the others you are presenting the information too regardless of their beliefs. I AM NOT FIGHTING FOR THE LDS PEOPLE. I am fighting for you and the respect you deserve BUT you throw it all away when you respond the way you have. If I were to mock and scorn all that you have learned or thought to be true would I not lose your respect. You seem to think that this has already been done and look at the way you have responded. That alone proves my point. Come on, admit it, this is wrong.

Sean
—-
From Leighton – Don’t give me this crap about, “I have always responded with respect for what you have presented. I have never NOT treated you and everything you have said with respect.” Not a single one of you has stopped to consider or even look at what I have presented. Would you like to know how I know this? Because I planted, in the very beginnings of our exchange, two pieces of bad information. I even emailed it to myself and took a screenshot of the email on the off chance that even one of you would prove you have the capacity to step outside of what is spoon-fed to you and look things up. Later, when I brought up the misquotation of Darwin, as Dad was responding furiously to my accusations of misinformation, I waited for a couple of days to see if anyone would bother to click on the link I provided showing the falseness behind your beloved leader’s words. Not a single one of you could be bothered to click on a link I provided. None of you look at or consider what I am proposing and yet you sit high on your pious chair and you claim to offer me the same respect I have offered you. Not only this, but there are cries of outrage because I point out the flaws of subjective experiences, something you in your current studies should know all about. I am berated and asked to apologize for pointing out the flaws in reasoning?

Take all of this together, the misinformation I provided and the further proof of the link no one could be bothered to click on, and ask yourself, how is this respecting what I have to say? Respect is earned, but my respect for each of you has begun to diminish the longer this conversation carried on. Even with that deluge of information concerning starving children, possibly done to drown out my response, had one magnificently large, glaring flaw. I challenge you to do this; step outside of your mindset and look at your own argument from the opposition’s side. Perhaps if dad, you, or anyone else for that matter, would have used an ounce of critical thinking you wouldn’t have been praised for presenting your argument. It can be torn down with a single question. Let’s see if you can figure out what that question might be.

Now, as to my mocking, the magical cool-aid, if you missed it, was in reference to the cult that poisoned themselves to reach that UFO. This is someone’s belief, the same exact proof used on these followers is what you all have offered me, and this is something we should give respect to and stop mocking and ridiculing? Am I supposed to keep quiet about the LDS church’s attempts to sidestep the translation of the descendant of Ham, or should I stop myself from chuckling as John Gee came out last year stating the Book of Mormon doesn’t stand or fall on the Book of Abraham? His statements even made it into the Ensign. Let me make this prediction; as the years go by the Book of Abraham is going to be given less and less importance until an attempt to sidestep it is made. Exactly as the translation of the descendant of Ham was done.

“Come on admit it this is wrong.”
I am quite content with what I have stated, whether this be mockery or otherwise. I will continue to show the same “respect” you all have shown me and if you all like, I will continue to point out the flaws in your thinking. Take a look at Tiffany’s response for example, she became so enraged that I would call Beck a retard she believed I was the one stating I knew what the prophet was thinking. She doesn’t even realize it is Beck who has made these claims nor does she realize that I had done a great amount of research into his background long before she had even mentioned him which is why I carry disdain for his character. If she were to do the same research she would discover many of the lies he tells in his attempts to look more “spiritual”.

Let me point out something which you all seem to miss; I am better acquainted with the scriptures, church history, the running of the church, etc. than most if not all of you. I have read the Church Handbook given out to only those in the highest offices. I have researched the temple and know about the secret handshake, ceremonies, etc. Your attempts to throw things at me which I have never heard or considered have made me chuckle. So, let me throw something your way which you may have never considered; if the temple ceremony was restored through the prophet and is the highest form of worship, why is it when you go through you no longer slit your throat or disembowel yourselves, symbolically of course? If you would like something further to think about, dad and the rest of you admitted that Joseph Smith translated the plates using stones he had found while digging a well; think for a time and perhaps you’ll realize why this is so damning of an admittance.

“What you are doing is not seeking truth.”
Laughable, brother. Absolutely laughable coming from someone who can’t bother themselves to research what is put in front of them or even click on a link. You ought to work on pulling that beam out of your eye before fiddling with the mote in mine. When you or anyone else is ready for an honest and frank discussion, you know where to find me. In the meantime, the above should help you realize how paper-thin your respect for me as been.

Leighton
—-
From Sean – Brother,

“Not a single one of you has stopped to consider or even look at what I have presented…. Not a single one of you could be bothered to click on a link I provided.”
I stated from the beginning that I was not interested in your spitting contest between you and the others. I was very clear that I would stick with one subject only. I have shown you the respect within what I informed you I was going to do. Please do not blame the faults of some on all – though I would guess it is more of a time issue for most. BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM DISCUSSING.

“Let’s see if you can figure out what that question might be.”
That was the point of that discussion. I present what I see. You present what you see. We see. Adjust our thinking where needed and see some more. I never sought to be praised. I do not know what question you have in mind. If I were to guess it would be a guess. BUT I shall guess for you – Why does god allow this to happen and not give the mana to them directly? This is also not what I have been discussing in these e-mails – this is a separate conversation.

“If you would like something further to think about, dad and the rest of you admitted”
Once again to clump everyone together. I informed you that there was no way to cover all you and the others were spitting at each other unless it was taken one subject at a time. I never desired to get involved in your spitting match which is why I stuck with one subject. If at a later time you desired to know my thoughts I am willing to discuss them but I will stick with one subject at a time. You do not know my opinion. You also do not know the opinion of others just because one person states their opinion (I am not discounting their opinion as right or wrong). Not the subject.

“laughable coming from someone who can’t bother themselves to research what is put in front of them or even click on a link.”
I have already covered this. One subject at a time. I am a turtle and I will take my time. I also will be respectful even when you are not. Getting closer.

“there are cries of outrage because I point out the flaws of subjective experiences”
If you look back over my e-mails you will see that I am not “outraged” (I would use disappointed) at the things you are pointing out but the way. Kind of.

“you sit high on your pious chair and you claim to offer me the same respect I have offered you”
This is more to the point of what I am talking about. Look at my e-mails. I never once place myself above you. In fact I am well aware that I am lacking in many areas. I am not even talking about this though. I am talking about you not providing others (family and others) with the respect that should be given whether they give it to you or not. You have chosen to clump everyone into one and not see them as individuals. This is also what you have done in Charley’s and your recordings – which is what I am talking about. In these recordings you show no respect for anyone – not even each other. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR INFORMATION OR DATA.

“this is something we should give respect to and stop mocking and ridiculing?”
YES

“Am I supposed to keep quiet about the LDS church’s attempts”
NO!!!! I never stated this nor have I ever implied you should not present your knowledge. It is the “mocking and ridiculing” that should be stopped. Being respectful to others does not mean you cannot have opposing views or information and point out our flaws and errors in thinking.

“Take a look at Tiffany’s response for example, she became so enraged”
As you also have. This is because of the viewed lack of respect shown to Tiffany and your statements. Just because one person is disrespectful does not mean that we should also be that way. You are right in this. It also does not mean that EVERYONE is being disrespectful.

“I will continue to show the same “respect” you all have shown me and if you all like, I will continue to point out the flaws in your thinking.”
Good!!! I have and do show you respect. So I expect you to hold to this statement in regards to me. I have a question for you though: If one person shows how stupid they are should we also show how stupid we are? If one person is disrespectful should we also be disrespectful? If this is true then the Holy Wars were a good idea. If this is true you no longer need to mock anyone but yourself and Charley because you have become what you mock.

“You ought to work on pulling that beam out of your eye before fiddling with the mote in mine.”
I am aware that I am not perfect and I do have a beam or two in my eye. Probably much larger than yours. If you see my beam. Help me remove it. So, perhaps I do not see clearly. If this is the case, then please explain to me how you are being respectful to others and their beliefs in your recordings with Charley? THIS IS THE THING I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. This is through the blurred vision of mine but I see it to be very wrong and disrespectful to all you mock – How is this any different from the Holy Wars or any other horrible act you describe in religion acting out? (Yes, you are not killing)

“the above should help you realize how paper-thin your respect for me as been”
I am sorry you see it this way – for all the comments I have made have been with as much respect as I am able to muster. I may stick to one subject but this is not due to having a lack of respect. In fact it is the opposite. It is so I can show respect for what you present. BUT respect is not only in the way you look at everything sent your or my way. Respect is also in the way we respond to each other and OTHERS. I hope you see it is not as paper-thin as you might think.

Sean
—-
From Leighton – Sean, it’s a bit cowardly to be invoking someone’s name when they aren’t part of this discussion. Don’t you think the right thing to do here is to invite Charley into this conversation so he can defend himself against these accusations you’re making against him instead of talking behind his back this entire time. After all, everyone here knows all I ever do is repeat what Charley, scientists, and historians say, so why don’t we just cut out the middle man?

As a sidenote, thanks for listening to the show. Other than just listening, I invite you to do the research and refute what we’ve stated. If you can’t do this, I stand behind everything I have said, including the well-deserved mockery. Here’s a better idea, why don’t you come onto the show and publicly discuss where we are wrong on such subjects as God the Rapist, Book of Abraham, The Mantle is Far Far Greater, etc., etc., etc. In fact, I invite anyone out there to listen to our show and find a single thing we’ve said that can be refuted and I will ensure we publicly apologize. Any of you, so strong in your understanding and beliefs, can come on at any time and publicly humiliate me with how wrong I am.

You know, despite dad wanting this conversation to end, if you would like it to continue I’d be happy to stick with a single subject such as God the Rapist. However, I will make one stipulation; either you stop bringing up Charley, because frankly I’m getting tired of hearing him brought up, or you invite him into the conversation so he can defend himself. Otherwise this is little more than talking behind his back.

Leighton
—-
From Sean – Brother,

I had plans to present this to Charley, depending on how you responded. I hope you will be able to find my comments and yours in another spot.

I see that you are unwilling to listen at this time. I am sorry to hear this. You also think I am still arguing about the subjects. I am not. This conversation has never been about that. It is about the way you are responding.

I do not think you understand completely why I have approached you on this matter. I do not think I can explain it better than I have. I would continue to try but I see that you are unwilling to even think of changing at this time.

I do not mind discussing with you subjects of your choosing BUT I cannot in good conscience do this if you continue mocking your family and others. I do not mind if you mock me BUT I will not allow our discussions to be used to mock others. I am sorry to say that at this time I cannot continue our discussions until you are willing to be respectful. This is not me running away from the subjects – I do not fear knowledge. This is because I do not want to have you “talking behind (my)his back” and using it to mock others.

It seems that history always repeats itself (read Alma 46, 47 and 48 from the Book of Mormon). I do not compare myself to anyone in those scriptures as I am not worthy of that. I do point out that this is only one example of the war of words we have been having.

Once again I regret that our conversations will be ending for the time being. I am willing to continue them at a later time when you are willing to show the respect that others deserve.

Sean

With respect for your views but not the way you are presenting them.