[chuck]Quick post to let you all know I’ll be on the Church of Awesome this Thursday discussing the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre, the darkest time in LDS history — well, for the gentiles passing through their territory, anyway. It’s a subject I’ve been wanting to research for a while now, and finally (with some prodding by the CoA guys) got down to doing it.
In the meantime, I’m still getting email from people who apparently don’t know we stopped doing podcasts 7 or 8 months ago. This one is from someone named Marcus Rodriguez, who has issued THE ATHEIST CHALLENGE, 10 questions with which to stump atheists.
My general answer is that with the possible exceptions of numbers 9 and 10, these are all remarkably stupid questions, and serve to demonstrate that the questioner has extremely limited knowledge of the world outside Christianity. A few examples: question #3 is a great demonstration of the “is-ought fallacy,” #4 shows the absolute idiocy of the questioner (hey moron, there’s this fancy new site that allows you to actually search the internet for shit you don’t know), #5 is a naked assertion, #7 conveniently forgets Sweden, Norway, and most other European countries, etc etc etc. But have at him.
Earlier this month I did a blog post on 10 questions for an atheist. http://bittersweetend.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/the-atheist-challenge/
An I actually got a really good response from the blogosphere, and alot of peopel enjoyed. I was thinking if yal would like to go through the questions in a podcast or just simply come to the blog and answer them.
10 Questions to ask an Atheist
I thought this would be interesting, because I’ve seen several questionnaires like this, but I wanted something that would go deep and to get people someone thinking. (Please give realistic and honest answers.)
1. If there is NO God, then there is no Measurement or Standard for morality? Then What will define morality?
2. If there is NO God, then there is NO meaning or purpose to Life. So without a God, does life have purpose or meaning? Without God, does the Atheist have purpose?
3. Are you an advocate of New Atheism and Darwinism? If so, then the most extreme and logical form of Darwinism is Eugenics. Would you support this? Why or Why Not?
4. If we are ancesoters/descendants of Apes, then why are there no transitional fossils or species to support this theory?
5. Do you believe in Human Nature? It is Human Nature to believe in God, if so, why do you go against human nature and not believe in God?
6. Can ‘Something come from Nothing’? Doesn’t that violate The First Law of Thermodynamics?
7. It seems that a society of Atheist are immoral and self-destructing. Why would anyone want a Godless Society, just look at our examples: North Korea, Maoist China, Stalin, & Pot Pol?
8. If you were to die, and you were before God. And he was getting ready to pass judgement on you, What would be your reaction or thoughts? What plea would you give him so he does not judge you harshly?
9. What would convince you atheism is wrong? And that Christianity is Right?
10. Why are you an Atheist? Why do you NOT believe in God? Why do you reject God? (You can be as detailed as you want.)
P.S. if you decide to talk about the questions in a podcast, I do wanna give you some background on why the questions are formed the way they are.
Well as a christian (or whatever you choose to call me now), when I get into conversations with my christian friends at work; two of the first things that is brought is that an atheist has no purpose or meaning without god. And without god an atheist can’t account for morality. (And I did have a conversation similar to this at work almost two weeks ago.) So to a fundamentalist christian, these 10 questions are just some of the things an atheist must take account for and answer.
now the other thing, I had a lot of questions is why the loaded questions…Because when I get into these conversations with my christian friends, its NOT “Can there morality be outside of God?” – Its “All morality and purpose comes from God, so an atheist can’t possibly be moral.” – “Since, an atheist does not believe in God he has no purpose.” So its a loaded question because that’s how the christian will ask it. They will always ask it in biased form, because to the christian God is a fact.
Just wanted to give you alittle insight and background behind the questions.
28 Responses to “Mountain Meadows Massacre, and 10 Questions for Atheists”
Great! I’m interested to hear you talk about Mountain Meadows. It should be interesting.
These sorts of ‘gotcha’ questions seem like they’re projecting christian insecurities onto atheists.
Take #1, “If there is NO God, then there is no Measurement or Standard for morality? Then What will define morality?”
From my perspective, that’s barely a coherent question. People talk about how to do stuff skillfully. When we talk about making brownies, we call the system ‘baking’. When we talk about helping others, we call the system ‘morality’.
But, from a theist perspective, “what do we mean by morality?” is a real problem, since they’re caught between the ‘morality is how to help people’ and ‘morality is doing what god said because he’s god’ definitions.
Or #2 seems like projection too. Without god, ‘purpose’ is a concept that people ascribe to things. Purpose isn’t a physical thing. Not ‘having’ objective purpose is about as worrysome as not being able to buy an ounce of beauty or cup of funny.
But, it’s a non-trivial problem in theistic systems. They hit an is-ought gap somewhere between, “God says I should spend my life making the ultimate paperclip,” and “I ought drop out of college to go to paper-clip conferences.”
Well shit, let’s answer these shall we?
1) Morality. We make the standard. We people who are social creatures define the standards of interaction.
2) Life has whatever purpose you give it. It is part of my purpose in this life to take care of my wife. It is part of my purpose in this life to fight stupidity. It’s not hard to find a purpose in life.
3) The stupid burns. Evolution is real. It’s a fact. It doesn’t need my endorsement or advocacy. It is also descriptive while eugenics is prescriptive. Eugenics is not the most extreme form of evolution it is an extreme form of people being assholes.
4) There are. Plenty of them.
5) It depends on what is meant by human nature and it’s amusing that it is simply asserted that it is human nature to believe in a god. Humans do have a tendency to think things that happen are the result of someone making them happen so to that extent it probably is human nature to believe in a god. Why am I not that way? Well, probably for the same reason I don’t fuck every woman I meet. As humans we don’t have to succumb to our baser nature, we can rise above it to make the world a better place.
6) Yes it can. No it doesn’t.
7) It only looks that way if you look for atheistic societies based on what you think the results are going to be. If you actually look at atheistic societies based on their level of religiosity you will see that across the board, the less religious a society is the better it does at being a decent place to live. Fewer murders, fewer rapes, assaults, armed robberies, divorces, teenage pregnancies, lower rates of infant mortality and so forth.
8) It would largely depend on which god that is, now wouldn’t it. If it’s the Christian god, it would depend first on how good his apology is.
9) Actual evidence.
10) I was born an atheist and have never found any of the arguments for god even remotely compelling.
3) The stupid burns. Evolution is real. It’s a fact. It doesn’t need my endorsement or advocacy.
Yeah, that caught my eye too. Might as well ask if I’m an advocate for Special Relativity, or Boyle’s Law, or the Atomic Theory. “The most extreme and logical form of Boyle’s Law is CRUSHING PEOPLE TO DEATH (in a closed system while keeping temperature constant). Why don’t you advocate that, huh?”
About question 2, I don’t think that morality is something “defined”. I mean, history shows that ethical consesnsus within human society keeps evolving as our social interaction becomes more complex and while the relevance of minority (and majority) rights grows.
If we end up creating sentient androids, I guess in the future we will be having a debate about “human-android”, “android-android” or even “multiple-human-android” marriage. Probably a ridiculous example, but you know what I mean.
The evidence just doesn’t suggest the existence of something that we can call a “defined morality”.
And about question numer 5, I would say that human nature is to believe that human nature is the center of the universe.
“1. If there is NO God, then there is no Measurement or Standard for morality? Then What will define morality?” What is with the Fucking capitalization? Actually the standard for morality is the OPPOSITE of the golden rule – ‘Do NOT unto others what you would NOT want them to do unto you’ because the golden rule allows me to rape pretty girls (because that is what I would like them to do unto me).
Seems like every question is an assertion, so let me turn this around on the dumb-ass. “If you only do good/avoid evil because you want rewards/avoid punishment in the afterlife do you really think your god wants your brown-nose anywhere near him/her/it?”
Chuck, you seem as charged up as ever; people look up to you. Religion is the worst fault of mankind, this world needs the passion and intellect that you and others provide. You just happen to be a pro.
Your podcast has given me the chance to become a better person over these past three years. My father and i regularly talk about your cast in conversations. Thank you for what you have done. I look forward to anything you do in the future, please let us know if we can help to get things off the ground. Good luck Chuck, and thank you.
Number 10 – if god wanted us to believe, he would have existed.
The genuinely moral person doesn’t need religion’s promise of reward or threat of punishment to be moral. The truly moral person does what’s right because it’s right.
But Christians like your buddy there can’t imagine that mindset. Being a moral and ethical person FOR FREE? No bribes? They can’t comprehend it. That’s what sets them apart from the atheists (among other things).
This email is just another example of our failing system of education.
I think previous posters did a pretty good job of killing these questions one by one.
#1 shows a lack of understanding for the progression of Christian morality over time. For having an a god who is supposed to be unchanging, Christians really seem to have a lot of flux in the moral code.
#2 demonstrates the author’s inability to find purpose without an authoritarian figure dictating said purpose. As an adult you should be able to find that on your own.
#3 – what Gregory Lynn said.
#4 – Yes that’s true, as long as you completely ignore the thousands of fossils that have been cataloged demonstrating transitional forms. That one is pure ignorance.
#5 – Doesn’t make sense, and is predicated upon accepting an ill-defined premise.
#6 – Author needs to understand the fallacy of special pleading before using this argument.
#7 – What Chuck and Gregory said.
#8 – I would question, not unlike what was said on the podcast, why did god almost purposefully make the world work and appear as if it never existed.
#9 – As said before, evidence derived from scientifically sound methods that proved existence.
#10 – Because nothing that I have observed has made me think otherwise so far; much to the contrary, I would even say the observable universe works very much in a way I would expect if there was no intelligent force behind it.
Oh yeah, stoked on the Mountain Meadows episode. Looking forward to it.
#8 id spit in his fucking face
You’ll have to save this on the back burner for when you hit a lull in topic ideas for unapologetics.
It’d be nice if people could spell correctly when they’re trying to be taken seriously. Yet another symptom of our failing educational system.
Oh man, please do a podcast on this. I really can’t afford flying over there and whacking this idiot on the head with middle-school level biology text books
1. If there is NO God, then there is no Measurement or Standard for morality? Then What will define morality?
I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you over my raping and stealing, what?
2. If there is NO God, then there is NO meaning or purpose to Life. So without a God, does life have purpose or meaning? Without God, does the Atheist have purpose?
Hmmm, guess I’ll kill myself!
3. Are you an advocate of New Atheism and Darwinism? If so, then the most extreme and logical form of Darwinism is Eugenics. Would you support this? Why or Why Not?
First of all, Fuck yea! And hey, what is this shit, some kind of essay question? Is this the SAT’s? Will I have to compare and contrast some shit? And I thought it was ten questions, that’s like three or four you fucking cheater.
4. If we are ancesoters/descendants of Apes, then why are there no transitional fossils or species to support this theory?
what the fuck is an ancesoter?
5. Do you believe in Human Nature? It is Human Nature to believe in God, if so, why do you go against human nature and not believe in God?
ok, again with this shit, that’s like three questions and I’m not writing a fucking essay!
6. Can ‘Something come from Nothing’? Doesn’t that violate The First Law of Thermodynamics?
Fuck you, that’s two questions! Again! aaaaah!
7. It seems that a society of Atheist are immoral and self-destructing. Why would anyone want a Godless Society, just look at our examples: North Korea, Maoist China, Stalin, & Pot Pol?
because sunday mornings are for hangovers. duh.
8. If you were to die, and you were before God. And he was getting ready to pass judgement on you, What would be your reaction or thoughts? What plea would you give him so he does not judge you harshly?
If I bitch slapped you upside your head, what would you do? Suck my balls, that’s what.
9. What would convince you atheism is wrong? And that Christianity is Right?
12 billions dollars.
10. Why are you an Atheist? Why do you NOT believe in God? Why do you reject God? (You can be as detailed as you want.)
Fuck you and your cheating multiple question single question format that’s why!
1-5, these are not questions, but a statement and a question about the statement. The statement is wrong, so the question is meaningless.
6. Yes,No, You should at least take the time to understand the most basic principles of thermodynamics before using it in an argument.
7. see 1-5, and who is pot pol? Conveniently forgot the crusades, witch trials, and Hitler I see.
8. This is a meaningless question since there is no god and no judgment and no hell, but I will play your game anyway. I would point out the many times he ordered the mass slaughter of innocent women and children and point out that I was far more moral than he/she was and he/she made it into heaven.
9. Scientifically sound study showing that prayer works. There have been countless tests and studies that have shown very conclusively that blinded prayer has an unmeasurable effect, yet ever theist persists in this failed ritual.
ok, I think it is time to for me to respond to some of these comments…
Hi My Name is Marcus, And I am the one who made up the questionnaire…I am somewhat disappointed in some of the atheist comments. It is these types of ad hominem mockish and satirical answers that make the christian affirm their faith. Instead of just answering the question, some have felt it would be better to make fun of the question. And not take it serious. This is why so many atheist convert to Christianity, because many Christians are willing to take the time to answer the questions without laughing or mocking the person in their face. The atheist who doesn’t take his intellectual honesty more serious might as well become a christian, because they have no use for reason. And might as well join those who don’t use reason either.
Now I asked the questions cause as a doubting christian, theses are the questions a fundamentalist christian would ask. its a loaded question because that’s how the christian will ask it. They will always ask it in biased form, because to the christian God is a fact. Its sad to see, that many atheist, do not have much compassion for the fellow man.
In Addition, In all fairness I also posted a 10 question challenge to christian on my blog. http://bittersweetend.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/the-christian-theist-challenge/
Lastly….I AM NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN. http://bittersweetend.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/facing-the-truth/
*And a week, since I’ve come out openly and publicly about it
The questions were asked this way of a loaded fashion, because I knew when I made the jump to truth and de-converted. I knew these would be the questions I would be asked.
And this is the part that is most disappointing, What if after reading peoples comments, I said to myself “Atheist are mean, and they don’t want answer peoples questions seriously. why would I want to be one of them?” Because that thought did pop into my mind. What if after reaching out to a few atheist, I realized they didn’t want to reach out to me. What if I decided to stay in my God Delusion because simply it was better than being a mean angry atheist. (Which I can understand why some atheist are angry, but that is still not justification of action.) What if I decided that its better to be a delusional christian, than to come out into the truth of that there is no Judeo-Christian God. Because if I do, my marriage could come to and end. (Which is still very true to this moment.)
I can understand some of the backlash, of some of the comments. But still, the compassionate atheist can open more hearts and minds than the angry atheist.
I wrote on a blog the other day….Is this a movement or a war? Cause wars are won by smashing our enemy. Movements are won by winning over the minds and hearts of those who stand against us.
I rather it be a movement, because movements stand the test of truth & time.
I don’t take the questions seriously because they don’t deserve to be taken seriously. When someone asks me why there are no transitional fossils when there are thousands that are easily accessible by anyone willing to type “transitional fossils” into Google, I cease taking them seriously. My answer to that is put some of your own effort in if you really want the truth. If you’re not interested in the truth — and the way these questions are phrased it is obvious that the person is not interested in the truth — then stop wasting my time.
If you are really serious when you say, “Atheists are mean, and don’t take my questions seriously, so why would I want to be one of them?” I would say grow up. The question is not who is “meaner,” the question is whose worldview is a closer approximation to the truth? “Meanness” has exactly zero to do with truth or falsity.
Finally, atheism is both a movement and a war. I’d be satisfied with just the movement aspect if Christians weren’t trying their damnedest to ruin my children’s education, to deprive women and gays of basic human rights, and generally fuck up the country as much as humanly possible before they get raptured into the sky. As it is, this is the great challenge of our generation: do we surrender to the tyranny of idiot Christian fundamentalism and vote in the likes of Palin or Santorum or Perry or Romney and watch our country slide rapidly into the abyss of ignorance and intolerance, or do we require evidence and empiricism before we subscribe to beliefs? Do we mold our actions on bronze and iron age myths, or do we base them on secular humanism and empirical science?
Wow…. you have completely missed my point.
I am now an agnostic/atheist. Just de-converted and told my wife on Monday and the pastor this past Friday. I run the risk of losing my family. Losing custody of my kids. Losing all my friends. Losing the community that has loved me and respected me for the last couple years. Losing the respect of some of my family and friends, cause they view me as a Man of God. I am losing my way of life and my delusion. For what?
Intellectual Honesty?
Is this all I have gained in losing my religious delusion. There is no support group for me. There is no I can call up and talk to you. All I have is my blog to express myself. And here I am trying to educate you on having compassion on the ignorant christian.
You call it a war…go ahead and have your war, but be warned. We atheist will lose. Because the majority wins the war, and we atheist are the minority.
Minorities win movements, because they win hearts and minds.
*On final note, I have indoctrinated in the last decade of christian delusion, that there were no transitional fossils, and that is why I asked that questions. Christians are taught that there are no transitional fossils.
I understand you’re an atheist. I’m saying that is irrelevant. If you don’t value intellectual honesty, then move along. You’re in the wrong place.
Your situation is not unique. Very few of us have been atheists all our lives. I grew up Mormon. My path to atheism was gradual and took nearly ten years. When I finally admitted to myself that I was an atheist, I knew I had no atheist friends. My entire family was Mormon, my wife’s entire family was Mormon, and all of my friends were Mormon. It was a terrible feeling of loneliness, but that didn’t alter the truth: religion is not only false, but a destructive pack of lies.
The ignorant Christian doesn’t need compassion. S/he needs to be shaken up, laughed at, and mocked. It doesn’t matter to me that I’m in the minority. Wars have been won with fewer combatants fighting against larger foes. Someone else can carry the movement aspect, there are plenty of accommodationists around willing to play nice with ignorant Christians. You might want to hang around Chris Mooney’s blog or listen to Point of Inquiry, because I doubt you’ll find any accommodationists here.
Ah, Chuck, we miss you…
#6 If I am willing to concede the “something from nothing” point if you will admit that accepting this as fact negates the existance of God the creator and, therefore, creationism. (God must have been preceded by something because God could not have come from nothing.)
We all know what preceded God, of course — man.
Chuck. Love it. I think of Malcolm X and MLK Jr. Those brothers took competing positions to fight the same fight (ending Jim Crow and obtaining a greater voice in Anerican society for black Americans). We atheists need our agitators and pacifists, too.
(sorry for typos. Typing on iPhone with fat fingers)
Yeah, I’m not interested in the accommodationist mindset, but that’s the nice thing about the free and open exchange of ideas — everyone gets heard.
I have no choice in the manner to be a pacifist or an accomendationist. Because its the only way for me to preserve my marriage. Cause my wife is still a christian and she did not take the atheist/agnostic news so well
My wife didn’t take it well either, but we’re still together. This helped, from 1st Corinthians 7:13-14:
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.